Steven Seagal is no more likely to convicted of drug offences than Chuck Norris is. And we all know how closely Chuck resembles Chandler’s description.
More seriously, I wouldn’t say that Harry fits that description. He isn’t untarnished; he isn’t unafraid; he isn’t a man of honour; I do not think that if there were enough of him that the world would be a very safe place to live in. He is a detective of sorts - the only thing that fits.
I was worried that this film might attempt a teen comedy level of gross out humour and retarded slapstick comedy when the dog picked up Harry’s finger but thankfully, no.
You didn’t warn me that I was going to see a gay film.
Tom 14 February 2006, 06:07 AM
2
That’ll teach me to link to things without reading them again. It was getting late when I got to that bit. I reserve the right to remove the offending footnote and render your comment highly peculiar. Chuck is a little closer to the Chandler description in some ways but I suspect his powers of seduction to be far inferior to Harry’s. Which aren’t brilliant either.
The finger business managed to be quite funny without sinking to that level.
Tom 14 February 2006, 06:25 AM
3
Actually, I don’t rescind my claim. I certainly disagree with you on the honour business, and I’m not sure what we’re both reading “tarnished” to mean so I might not get into that.
I feel that the film shows Harry slowly becoming a Chandleresque hero. By the end he has lost most of his fear (I refer you to his heroics at the end). Even from the start he contains elements of heroism: his honour is an instinctive honour rather than a conscious one, say for example his killing of the thug that executes the girl. He’s proud (despite having nearly no reason to be) and has a few other items on the checklist, such as rude wit. He’s not as good a match as the Doctor but I think he’s well on the way.
Andy 14 February 2006, 08:05 AM
4
So you rescind your rescindment eh? Would you call stealing gifts for your niece and lying to her about it honourable and honest? He is more Chandleresque at the end with his loss of fear but I would not say he has a range of awareness that startles you.
If Paul calls this a gay movie, what does he think of Brokeback Mountain?
Tom 14 February 2006, 08:17 AM
5
When he said this was gay my first reaction was to ask if he meant the cowboy movie. He thought that one was pretty gay too, I don’t think he’s seen it.
I think you’re confusing “honourable” and “honest”. Even so, he’s not stealing stuff at the end, either — he’s got a job and is on the level. Even when he’s stealing at the beginning he’s trying to get the right present for his neice. A dishonourable thief wouldn’t have risked the whole theft to call her.
You know I’m easily startled. I thought he had one reasonably clever scene where he put together a few clues and surprised Perry but I can’t remember it so it might be an hallucination. Your initial point was that the only similarity was that he was kind of a detective. Having sneakily redefined my point to say that I’m talking about Harry at the end of the film, I think that’s wrong and that he’s at least 75% a Chandler hero.
Andy 14 February 2006, 09:20 AM
6
Your subtle change in definition of the argument is impressive. But you don’t know the power of the dark side.
Tell me please which definition of honour you think he fits. A dishonourable thief would have risked the whole theft to call her. He was calling his niece because he’d forgotten which toy it was she’d wanted. An honourable thief would show respect by paying attention when she told him the first time and remember what is was he was supposed to be stealing in the first place.
At the end of the film, he’s 40%, max.
Andy 14 February 2006, 09:50 AM
7
As for Chuck Norris’s powers of seduction, if you’d check chucknorrisfacts.com you’ll find:
-In a recent survey it was discovered the 94% of American women lost their virginity to Chuck Norris. The other 6% were incredibly fat or ugly.
-As a teen, Chuck Norris had sex with every nun in a convent tucked away in the hills of Tuscany. Nine months later the nuns gave birth to the 1972 Miami Dolphins, the only undefeated and untied team in professional football history.
-Once you go Norris, you are physically unable to go back.
-Wilt Chamberlain claims to have slept with more than 20,000 women in his lifetime. Chuck Norris calls this “a slow Tuesday.”
I wasn’t Chuck Norris fan until I learned he can divide by zero and he has counted to infinity twice. I do remember Walker, Texas Ranger being preferable to infomercials at 2 in the morning. I wish I could solve all my problems by punching people.
Tom 15 February 2006, 09:59 AM
8
Eight a). You know what kids are like, always changing their minds. He called her up because the one she wanted wasn’t there.
Andy 16 February 2006, 04:12 AM
9
You must have seen him displaying more moral principles and personal integrity than I did while he was thieving. Maybe I missed the part where the niece was poor and the toy shop owner was a cruel rich noble who oppresses peasants.
Tom 16 February 2006, 05:06 AM
10
If you insist on not listening to me when I say I’m talking about Harry once he’s stopped his thieving and actually become a detective then I don’t think we’re going to have much luck here.
Moral principles he displays through the movie include: avenging random girl’s death, being concerned for Harmony’s wellbeing and her losing her principles to get by in Hollywood, being concerned for Harmony’s sister and pleading with Perry to help her (even later in the film when he’s not just doing it to stay close to Harmony), wanting to get the truth out and not caring about the consequences to himself (well, not as much as he does about the truth thing).
Andy 16 February 2006, 06:57 AM
11
I agree with you that he is more honourable at the end, but we were having a discussion about how honourable he was when he was stealing toys.
I said:
Would you call stealing gifts for your niece and lying to her about it honourable and honest?
You said:
Even when he is stealing at the beginning he is trying to get the right present for his neice.
I asked you which definition he fits while he was conducting his heist.
You said:
Eight a). You know what kids are like, always changing their minds. He called her up because the one she wanted was not there.
I said:
You must have seen him displaying more moral principles and personal integrity than I did while he was thieving.
Am I mistaken?
Tom 16 February 2006, 07:01 AM
12
I felt that risking the robbery to check with his neice showed integrity. Someone less concerned with principles would have just stolen any old thing but he clearly cares for her and believes in getting the right thing — he’s just not doing it honestly.
You’re not mistaken, I’m a silly billy. Your peasant and rich noble talk riled me up. There are many levels of integrity before you become Robin Hood.
Jack 16 February 2006, 11:47 AM
13
I don’t believe burglars break into places to steal random things.
I also think the the idea that the robbery was at risk due, which seems fundamental to your argument is wrong, or at best flawed.
Obviously you think lingering in a place longer than neccessary constitutes a risk - perhaps, but it is negligible especially when put up against actually deciding to burgle in the first place.
All this is irrelavent of course. Regardless of whether it was a risk or not, I certainly don’t think Harry perceived it as one. Being reckless/careless isn’t the same thing as honour.
Tom 16 February 2006, 12:46 PM
14
Very well, allow me to concede this point and retreat to my “by the end of the film Harry is quite close to being a hero” position.
Perhaps he’s not honourable at the start, but the robbery scene clearly shows him to be a cut above from your standard thief in terms of wanting to get getting the present right. Of course, not knowing his history between childhood and this point, it’s hard to judge him in either direction for this I suppose.
Jack 16 February 2006, 12:54 PM
15
It does present him as a nice guy I grant you. He’s certainly not a malicious, nasty thief.
Comment on this Review
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Andy
14 February 2006, 05:28 AM
Steven Seagal is no more likely to convicted of drug offences than Chuck Norris is. And we all know how closely Chuck resembles Chandler’s description.
More seriously, I wouldn’t say that Harry fits that description. He isn’t untarnished; he isn’t unafraid; he isn’t a man of honour; I do not think that if there were enough of him that the world would be a very safe place to live in. He is a detective of sorts - the only thing that fits.
I was worried that this film might attempt a teen comedy level of gross out humour and retarded slapstick comedy when the dog picked up Harry’s finger but thankfully, no.
You didn’t warn me that I was going to see a gay film.
Tom
14 February 2006, 06:07 AM
That’ll teach me to link to things without reading them again. It was getting late when I got to that bit. I reserve the right to remove the offending footnote and render your comment highly peculiar. Chuck is a little closer to the Chandler description in some ways but I suspect his powers of seduction to be far inferior to Harry’s. Which aren’t brilliant either.
The finger business managed to be quite funny without sinking to that level.
Tom
14 February 2006, 06:25 AM
Actually, I don’t rescind my claim. I certainly disagree with you on the honour business, and I’m not sure what we’re both reading “tarnished” to mean so I might not get into that.
I feel that the film shows Harry slowly becoming a Chandleresque hero. By the end he has lost most of his fear (I refer you to his heroics at the end). Even from the start he contains elements of heroism: his honour is an instinctive honour rather than a conscious one, say for example his killing of the thug that executes the girl. He’s proud (despite having nearly no reason to be) and has a few other items on the checklist, such as rude wit. He’s not as good a match as the Doctor but I think he’s well on the way.
Andy
14 February 2006, 08:05 AM
So you rescind your rescindment eh? Would you call stealing gifts for your niece and lying to her about it honourable and honest? He is more Chandleresque at the end with his loss of fear but I would not say he has a range of awareness that startles you.
If Paul calls this a gay movie, what does he think of Brokeback Mountain?
Tom
14 February 2006, 08:17 AM
When he said this was gay my first reaction was to ask if he meant the cowboy movie. He thought that one was pretty gay too, I don’t think he’s seen it.
I think you’re confusing “honourable” and “honest”. Even so, he’s not stealing stuff at the end, either — he’s got a job and is on the level. Even when he’s stealing at the beginning he’s trying to get the right present for his neice. A dishonourable thief wouldn’t have risked the whole theft to call her.
You know I’m easily startled. I thought he had one reasonably clever scene where he put together a few clues and surprised Perry but I can’t remember it so it might be an hallucination. Your initial point was that the only similarity was that he was kind of a detective. Having sneakily redefined my point to say that I’m talking about Harry at the end of the film, I think that’s wrong and that he’s at least 75% a Chandler hero.
Andy
14 February 2006, 09:20 AM
Your subtle change in definition of the argument is impressive. But you don’t know the power of the dark side.
Tell me please which definition of honour you think he fits. A dishonourable thief would have risked the whole theft to call her. He was calling his niece because he’d forgotten which toy it was she’d wanted. An honourable thief would show respect by paying attention when she told him the first time and remember what is was he was supposed to be stealing in the first place.
At the end of the film, he’s 40%, max.
Andy
14 February 2006, 09:50 AM
As for Chuck Norris’s powers of seduction, if you’d check chucknorrisfacts.com you’ll find:
-In a recent survey it was discovered the 94% of American women lost their virginity to Chuck Norris. The other 6% were incredibly fat or ugly.
-As a teen, Chuck Norris had sex with every nun in a convent tucked away in the hills of Tuscany. Nine months later the nuns gave birth to the 1972 Miami Dolphins, the only undefeated and untied team in professional football history.
-Once you go Norris, you are physically unable to go back.
-Wilt Chamberlain claims to have slept with more than 20,000 women in his lifetime. Chuck Norris calls this “a slow Tuesday.”
I wasn’t Chuck Norris fan until I learned he can divide by zero and he has counted to infinity twice. I do remember Walker, Texas Ranger being preferable to infomercials at 2 in the morning. I wish I could solve all my problems by punching people.
Tom
15 February 2006, 09:59 AM
Eight a). You know what kids are like, always changing their minds. He called her up because the one she wanted wasn’t there.
Andy
16 February 2006, 04:12 AM
You must have seen him displaying more moral principles and personal integrity than I did while he was thieving. Maybe I missed the part where the niece was poor and the toy shop owner was a cruel rich noble who oppresses peasants.
Tom
16 February 2006, 05:06 AM
If you insist on not listening to me when I say I’m talking about Harry once he’s stopped his thieving and actually become a detective then I don’t think we’re going to have much luck here.
Moral principles he displays through the movie include: avenging random girl’s death, being concerned for Harmony’s wellbeing and her losing her principles to get by in Hollywood, being concerned for Harmony’s sister and pleading with Perry to help her (even later in the film when he’s not just doing it to stay close to Harmony), wanting to get the truth out and not caring about the consequences to himself (well, not as much as he does about the truth thing).
Andy
16 February 2006, 06:57 AM
I agree with you that he is more honourable at the end, but we were having a discussion about how honourable he was when he was stealing toys.
I said:
Would you call stealing gifts for your niece and lying to her about it honourable and honest?
You said:
Even when he is stealing at the beginning he is trying to get the right present for his neice.
I asked you which definition he fits while he was conducting his heist.
You said:
Eight a). You know what kids are like, always changing their minds. He called her up because the one she wanted was not there.
I said:
You must have seen him displaying more moral principles and personal integrity than I did while he was thieving.
Am I mistaken?
Tom
16 February 2006, 07:01 AM
I felt that risking the robbery to check with his neice showed integrity. Someone less concerned with principles would have just stolen any old thing but he clearly cares for her and believes in getting the right thing — he’s just not doing it honestly.
You’re not mistaken, I’m a silly billy. Your peasant and rich noble talk riled me up. There are many levels of integrity before you become Robin Hood.
Jack
16 February 2006, 11:47 AM
I don’t believe burglars break into places to steal random things.
I also think the the idea that the robbery was at risk due, which seems fundamental to your argument is wrong, or at best flawed.
Obviously you think lingering in a place longer than neccessary constitutes a risk - perhaps, but it is negligible especially when put up against actually deciding to burgle in the first place.
All this is irrelavent of course. Regardless of whether it was a risk or not, I certainly don’t think Harry perceived it as one. Being reckless/careless isn’t the same thing as honour.
Tom
16 February 2006, 12:46 PM
Very well, allow me to concede this point and retreat to my “by the end of the film Harry is quite close to being a hero” position.
Perhaps he’s not honourable at the start, but the robbery scene clearly shows him to be a cut above from your standard thief in terms of wanting to get getting the present right. Of course, not knowing his history between childhood and this point, it’s hard to judge him in either direction for this I suppose.
Jack
16 February 2006, 12:54 PM
It does present him as a nice guy I grant you. He’s certainly not a malicious, nasty thief.
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